Well, I hope you’re all prepared for Dalinar being an absolute twit, because in this chapter he’s putting his hat in the ring for the award of All Time Worst Husband Ever. He also gets highly equivocal ratings on the Dad front; at least there are some upvotes in that category to balance the downers.
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There’s no Cosmere discussion in the post this week, though as always, we make no promises about the comment discussion. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: A highland keep on the border between Alethkar and Jah Keved (L: As usual when we don’t have an exact city, this is my best guess. Since they mention the Vedens I figure this place has to be on the mountain range nearest to that city, and since the Horneater Peaks are actually part of Jah Keved, the mountain range I’ve indicated seems to be the most likely location that this chapter takes place.)
WHEN: 1166 – Eleven years ago
Dalinar is schooling Adolin on the ways of war when Evi arrives. After his son leaves, Dalinar and Evi get into an argument about whether or not they’ll ever be returning to Kholinar. Dalinar wants to stay on the warpath for the rest of his life, and when Evi breaks down, he grudgingly “admits defeat” and agrees to head back to Kholinar for a year after the battle for the Rift.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Strategist
“What kind of strategist would I be if I couldn’t foresee the next battle?”
AA: The irony is that he can see the next battle in the effort to unify Alethkar, and how to win it, but he can’t stop seeing his relationship with his wife as a series of battles—and he doesn’t know how to win those.
L: She’s an unknown enemy. He can understand other soldiers trying to kill him, but someone who genuinely cares about him and their sons? This is a mystery to him. It reminds me of a quote from Sun Tzu’s Art of War:
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
Dalinar knows himself, but he can never hope to understand her. Not that he has much time left to try…
AP: The real problem here is that as an Alethi he sees everything as a battle. Your spouse should not be your adversary. You should be a team fighting external battles together. The baseline of their relationship is conflict, and Evi isn’t equipped to handle that. We know that Dalinar matures later and his relationship with Navani is much more healthy. But it’s sad that he didn’t figure it out sooner.
Heralds
The sole Herald is Chach, patron of the Dustbringers, associated with the role of Guard and the divine attributes of Brave and Obedient.
AA: Throughout Words of Radiance, Chach was frequently the Herald for chapters where Adolin was heavily involved; though he is part of this chapter, I don’t think his presence is enough to account for the choice of Herald. My best guess is that she’s actually here for Evi, who is doing her best to be brave and obedient in accordance with Alethi social expectations.
AP: The Dustbringers are also associated with destruction, and for me, this marks the beginning of the end of Dalinar and Evi’s relationship. Dalinar is obedient to Gavilar’s orders, and Evi is attempting to be brave in the face of her continued isolation in Alethi society.
Icon
Reverse Kholin Glyphpair for a Dalinar flashback
Stories & Songs
“I’ve thought … maybe the only answer, to make you proud, is to go to the Nightwatcher and ask for the blessing of intelligence. The Old Magic can change a person. Make something great of them—”
“Evi,” Dalinar cut in. “Please, don’t speak of that place or that creature. It’s blasphemous.”
AA: I can’t help wondering what she’d have gotten for boon and curse if she’d done it. Ironic, isn’t it, that her death—and his part in it—eventually drives him to commit the “blasphemy” he decries here.
AP: This conversation also likely put the idea in his head.
Relationships & Romances
Though the last few fights had been disappointing, having his son with him had been an absolute delight. Adolin hadn’t gone into battle, of course, but he’d joined them at tactics meetings. Dalinar had at first assumed the generals would be annoyed at the presence of a child, but it was hard to find little Adolin annoying. He was so earnest, so interested.
…
Now he had to explain his choices, vocalize them for the ears of an eager young boy who had questions for everything—and expected Dalinar to know the answers.
Storms, it was a challenge. But it felt good. Incredibly good.
AA: The best part of this chapter was Dalinar enjoying his son’s company. That was so much fun.
L: I do really love seeing them connect like this. Adolin quite clearly looks up to his father so much.
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Oathbringer
AA: Yes, he does, and I find that appropriate and endearing. Granted that Dalinar isn’t exactly the ideal man in our modern terms, he’s pretty close to the Alethi ideal man, so it’s very right for Adolin to admire him. The funny thing is that when we see Dalinar interact with Evi, we see all his faults, and yet she’s the one person most directly responsible for making sure his sons see him as a great man.
AP: Adolin is about 12 here, so he’s the right age to start getting this type of training. He’s also the right age to still idolize his dad, who wasn’t around for most of his childhood.
AA: By way of contrast to Dalinar’s enjoyment of Adolin, though, there’s… this:
“Well, we could travel someplace warm. Up to the Steamwater. Just you and I. Time together. We could even bring Adolin.”
“And Renarin?” Evi asked. “Dalinar, you have two sons, in case you have forgotten. Do you even care about the child’s condition? Or is he nothing to you now that he can’t become a soldier?”
AA: Ouch. Just as you started to think maybe he was a good dad…
Seriously, though, I feel sorry for the man at the same time I want to smack him. I completely understand Evi’s anger at the way he’s ignoring his “defective” son—the son who, through no one’s fault, will never be any of the things that “make a man” in Alethi culture. Dude, he’s still your son! Still your responsibility, still in need of your love and respect. And Dalinar, the quintessential Alethi, simply has no clue how to respond to either the child or the situation. I don’t think the Alethi do parenting classes, more’s the pity.
L: Then there’s this:
The other son was unfit for battle, and spent most of his time in Kholinar.
L: “The other son.” Ouch. It’s like he can barely even be bothered to remember poor Renarin’s name.
AA: I know, right? I want to beat him severely about the head and shoulders, every time I read that line. He’s a human being and your son, you oaf!
AP: This whole sequence is heartbreaking. Evi is completely right to be angry. It does make me appreciate that, in the present timeline, Dalinar is attempting to repair this relationship. I think his surge of Connection is helping him to gain empathy. This chapter coming immediately after he handles an intangible “battle” with the Azish deftly contrasts how far he has come.
“Run along, son,” Dalinar said. “You have geography lessons today.”
“Can I stay? I don’t want to leave you.”
L: This is simultaneously sweet and painful. It’s great to see Adolin adoring his father so much, forging a real connection with him—but knowing what’s coming, it’s just… ugh. Soon Dalinar’s going to sink down into alcoholism and start ignoring both his sons.
AP: Yeah, it definitely gets worse before it gets better. So much worse.
“No, Evi,” he said as he made another notation, “I doubt we will ever settle back in Kholinar again.”
…
Satisfied, he looked up. And found Evi crying.
L: This poor woman. I can’t even imagine how difficult her life was, being carted around from battle to battle, never knowing if her husband, who she was trying so hard to love, would come back alive… and to watch him as he started molding one of her sons into (what she surely must have seen as) a carbon copy of himself while completely ignoring the other. That must have been the hardest part, I think—trying desperately to help her son be a better man than his father, while also not speaking ill of him (as she clearly must not have, since Adolin adores him so). Evi was a storming saint.
AA: Pretty much, yeah. We’ll talk about it again in a much later flashback, but it’s clear that she virtually never criticized Dalinar in the boys’ hearing. She praised him as the “only honest officer in the army, the honorable soldier. Noble, like the Heralds themselves. Our father. The greatest man in Alethkar.” Come to think of it, she rarely criticized him at all, though she did sometimes let him know how frustrated she was with certain of his behaviors.
AP: Evi is definitely too good for him. I like how we get all these hints about what a good and loving parent she was. Evi has finally created a home for herself and her family in Kholinar, in preparation for her husband coming home, and now Dalinar is pulling the rug out from under her. I can’t imagine the pain and frustration of having to deal with a spouse who is not supportive or invested in the relationship, and who openly plays favorites with his kids, while at the same time trying to raise them to love and respect their father. It’s exhausting just to write it out!
She rubbed her eyes, and he wondered if she’d see through his attempt to change the subject. Talking about her people often smoothed over their arguments.
L: I’d like to point out how f***ing manipulative this is. He’s not trying to change the subject to make her feel better—all he cares about is his own comfort. He doesn’t like her crying in front of him and brings up a subject he doesn’t actually give a damn about just to make himself more comfortable. UGH. How dare this woman cry in front of him. HOW DARE SHE HAVE FEELINGS.
AA: I suspect she knew exactly what he was doing, at some level, but she went along with it because she didn’t enjoy the argument, and she did enjoy talking about her people, even if she knew she’d never see them again.
AP: Evi hates conflict, so I think she’s perfectly willing to embrace the deflection. As much as I like Evi, she does not stand up for herself, and doesn’t know how to advocate for herself.
“We’ll go back to Kholinar after I deal with the rebellion at the Rift. I’ll promise you at least a year there.”
“Really?” Evi said, standing up.
“Yes. You’ve won this fight.”
“I… don’t feel like I’ve won…”
L: Because she didn’t. What she really wanted was for him to understand and want to return, to want to spend time with his sons and with her. Instead he’s just doing it to shut her up. That’s not winning, not by a long shot. Not for her.
AP: Oh, not at all. Dalinar feels like he’s giving her some great gift, but he really doesn’t get it. The lack of empathy is stunning.
AA: Honestly, I feel awful for both of them. They’re so storming different in virtually every way. I firmly believe that each loved the other to some extent, each in their own way, but… a set of Shardplate isn’t much foundation for a marriage. In this chapter, though, it sure looks like Evi was the one doing the vast majority of the work of adjusting to the other’s needs. Dalinar even realizes that, to some extent:
She’d never be a great scribe—she didn’t have the youthful training in art and letters of a Vorin woman. Besides, she didn’t like books, and preferred her meditations. But she’d tried hard these last years, and he was impressed.
AA: I wonder if he ever told her he appreciated her efforts. He recognizes that it was hard work, but he just sort of assumes that having learned so much, of course she would enjoy the Vorin way of life. Of course.
AP: I doubt that he ever did. She is acting out of self preservation, trying her best to fit into her adopted culture. The relationship is so one sided here. The best evidence of her success is how much everyone believed that they had a loving marriage and it was completely believable that Dalinar would be in such deep mourning for her that he refused to speak her name for years.
Storms, I don’t deserve that woman, do I?
L: No. No, you don’t.
AA: Not even a little bit, dude.
The really sad thing is that there have been flashes where it almost looked like he could, and perhaps even like he really wanted to. But then battle and conquest would demand his attention, and he’d willingly turn to that duty, and he never quite got around to actually understanding his wife.
AP: Definitely not. I’m glad he is doing better on his second try with Navani.
Well, so be it. The argument was her fault, as were the repercussions.
L: My reaction to this.
Bruised & Broken
“No, son, the most important thing we’ve won is legitimacy. In signing this new treaty, the Veden king has recognized Gavilar as the rightful king of Alethkar.
…
It was gratifying to see how much one could accomplish in both politics and trade by liberally murdering the other fellow’s soldiers. These last years full of skirmishes had reminded Dalinar of why he lived.
AA: He still thinks of himself as someone who lives for battle and killing. As the general and strategist he’s grown into (per Gavilar’s letter), he sees the value of having Gavilar’s government recognized by another country. Deeper down, though, he doesn’t really fight for Gavilar, for Kholin power, or for Alethkar: He fights because he loves to fight… because he’s addicted to the Thrill.
AP: The way he spins this also feeds into how Adolin views his father. We see Dalinar’s real motivation. Adolin just gets a valuable life lesson on politics and strategy.
Places & Peoples
“Conversation is a contest to them,” Evi said, throwing her hands up. “Everything has to be a contest to you Alethi, always trying to show up everyone else. For the women it’s this awful, unspoken game to prove how witty they are.”
L: Interesting parallel to Shallan, here. I wonder if the Alethi and Jah Keved are close enough in societal norms that Shallan’s constant attempts to be witty are reflections of this.
AA: Heh. I’m not sure Shallan had enough exposure to society to be all that versed in “societal norms”—though of course, she would have had some social life before her mother went ‘round the twist. Back to the moment, though, this is one of the many, many ways where I feel terrible for Evi. She’s a gentle soul, and one who simply likes to get along with people. She was raised in a culture that valued peace, and she probably fit in beautifully there. (At least until whatever-it-was caused her and her brother to grab the Shardplate and run…) For the sin of disliking personal conflict, the Alethi assume she’s just kind of dumb. Because obviously, if you don’t do well at word-fights, it can’t be because you don’t care about that kind of contest; it has to be because you’re mentally deficient. ::eyeroll::
AP: Yeah, the Alethi culture just doesn’t value Evi’s strengths. Her kindness and loyalty doesn’t get her very far here. I’d like to see more about Rira, and what it might have looked like if she had stayed.
AA: (Well, we know it was warmer than Alethkar, if nothing else!)
AP: She mentions that they were outcasts because of Toh stealing shardplate. But is she typically Riran? Or is she especially meek even for them? Or is she considered quite bold because she left with Toh?!
AA: Well, from what little we saw of him, Toh was every bit as disturbed by conflict as Evi—maybe more so. Now that he got Evi and the Shardplate taken care of, he’s been up in Herdaz for the last ten years being protected by Alethi guards. (I don’t think very highly of him, frankly!) Whatever their reason was for hiking off with the Plate—whether they really stole it, or were just refusing to give it up to someone who tried to take it from them, or whatever—the one bit of credit I can give Toh is that he did try to find someone capable of protecting the two of them and making use of the Shardplate.
Also, Adolin will get it when he turns 16, so that’s a good thing. Deserving kid, our Adolin.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“If you pay attention in your lesson, I’ll take you riding tomorrow.”
AA: This made me snicker a bit. I wonder if Dalinar ever knew how Adolin felt about horses when he was younger; I can’t help but remember his comment back in Chapter 10:
He’d spent many of those days, before he was fully a man, on campaign with his father during border skirmishes with Jah Keved. Adolin had been afraid of horses back then, though he’d never have admitted it.
AA: Dalinar thought he was promising the kid a real treat, and it was more of a terror. Heh.
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L: Sounds about par for the course for past!Dalinar.
AA: It does, doesn’t it? He’s not a horrible father—to Adolin, anyway—but he’s not exactly the most sensitive to what makes other people happy. Except maybe Navani.
AP: It’s another sign of his self-centeredness. Riding a horse would have been a great treat for him as a boy. So of course it would be a great treat for Adolin! And I’d argue that he is definitely a terrible father. Showing blatant favoritism to one child is incredibly damaging. It’s a great testament to Evi that her sons have a good relationship despite this.
Weighty Words
I would like to speak in person at length about all of this—indeed, I have important revelations of my own I would like to share. It would be best if we could meet in person.
AA: I wonder if Gavilar was getting the Unite Them Visions treatment from the Stormfather at this point, and was preparing to share that information with Dalinar. As far as we know, he never did so—but then, the man Dalinar became after the Rift was not someone you’d entrust with any sort of secret. He became an even more fearsome threat to be held over the heads of anyone who might consider rebelling against Kholin rule, but he also became an unpredicatble, drunken brute that… well, I sure wouldn’t trust him with anything sensitive!
Murky Motivations
Be warned, we are certain now that one of the other highprinces—we don’t know who—is supporting Tanalan and his rebellion.
L: Was… was it ever revealed who this was? I keep thinking Sadeas, but that’s wrong, isn’t it?
AA: I don’t think it was ever revealed, though if it was, I guess we’ll find out when we get there! I’m pretty sure the Sadeas connection was a fake; at the time, he had nothing to gain from undermining the Kholins, and everything to gain from continuing to be at the right hand of power.
Quality Quotations
“Unfortunately, our meeting will have to wait a few storms longer.”
AA: I just like that phrasing, so I thought I’d quote it.
In case you didn’t get enough of it, we’ll have another marriage to consider next week! We won’t spend much time on it, though; there’s a lot going on when we return to Kholinar. Strategy sessions, disguises, and a familiar voice await us! For now, join us in the comments, and we’ll see you there.
Alice is still half-buried in snow, but at least the power came back on. Also, the Starsight beta is finished, which was a crazy ride.
Lyndsey is really not a fan of young!Dalinar, in case that didn’t come through. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is going to hug her kid in a very un-Alethi fashion.
Woohooo, I got here first!
Storms, I don’t deserve that woman, do I? – No, you did not. Good that you at least had the sense to recognize it. Old Dalinar could have. It always makes me sad they never had the chance to make it work the way it had the potential to be.
(Little) Adolin is continuously adorable.
The only thing I can say in Dalinar’s favor here in his argument with Evi is that he does have a legitimate excuse beyond loving being out being the general…
After he almost killed Gavilar he promised he would never seek the throne, never be a political threat, etc. I view part of his desire of staying away from Kholinar being that he does not want to be where he could make a play for power – where he could interfere. Plus, he avoids Navani that way, so another advantage as he sees it.
Again, not much of a defense, but it does provide a little context that isn’t directly communicated here. It actually makes it sadder that he never communicated any of those fears with Evi.
Daes Dae’mar, anyone?
One thing that never really hit me until now is that the Rosharan continent must be in the Southern Hemisphere, if the Frostlands are in the south and the tropical Reshi Isles are in the north (not to mention the Steamwater Ocean).
@3 yea, i forget where it is, but there is an officail globe type map showing the position of the super continent in the southern hemisphere, makes me wonder if there are any islands on the other side…
@4smaugthemagnificent Who knows, with the Origin, whatever that is, on the other side, it really sounds like the contient is the only contient on Roshar. Usually big solid land masses kind of bother me, I know that’s probbaly because envisioning an entire world with so many is just difficult to process. Most planets that we have seen either seem to be gas giant with little to no land mass, dust balls, or planets liek mars that may or may not have had water or something there. Earth is kind of speical that we do have a planet mostly covered in water, and landmasses like we do.
Brandon confirmed that Roshar only has one supercontinent. So I’m not sure if there’s such a thing as a northern and southern hemisphere.
Ah… This chapter.
Prior to OB’s release, back in the days where we were all discussing WoR, I once spoke of how I didn’t think the Dalinar/Adolin relationship was anywhere near as healthy as it appeared nor as readers were thinking it was. I spoke of how, where others saw love and respect, I saw an over-bearing father who’s love seemed tied to expectations and to Adolin’s ability to meet them. Those discussing never gone down very well… They were met with strong opposition and, in the months prior to OB’s release, I had come to learn nothing would create a greater havoc than me pulling out on my Dalinar/Adolin theories.
At the time, no one liked the idea of Dalinar not being a good father. It isn’t I *wanted* Dalinar to be a bad father, I didn’t, but at the time I truly did feel there was something hidden in between the lines of WoR.
So when OB started and the first signs of Dalinar perhaps not being as great as a father as readers took him out to be, I recalled thinking to myself: “Ah. I called it. No one believed me.”. However, when I reached this chapter, I also recalled thinking: “Okay. So looks like he was a crap dad to Renarin, he seems alright with Adolin, so maybe I got this one wrong.”.
But future narrative would prove me right once again and, upon re-read, I found this chapter was one of the most heart-breaking of the entire book. Every single words in this chapter just… hurts. It hurts to see young Adolin love his father so much, it hurts to see Dalinar seemingly act like a decent father with him, it hurts to watch Evi’s tears and it hurts because, upon re-read, I knew how it would end.
I knew that enthusiastic energitic boy would never see his mother alive ever again after this scene. I knew *that* boy would finish growing up trying to please a father who’s love will have morph into hate, a hate he will never recognize nor understand. I knew those few good years were the fondation of Adolin’s entire hero-worship complex next to his father which later manifests itself by Adolin thinking he’ll never amount to anything next to Dalinar. I knew those rose-teinted googles Adolin will later wear were fabricated during those years and ah, it just hurts. No kid should need to go through this and it hurts even more Adolin is rarely given credit for having lived through Dalinar’s worst years. He is so strong, so steady, always smiling…. It hurts to know this smile is not only Evi’s, but also a mask. Adolin’s own little fake persona.
And yeah, I also felt sorry for Renarin… In this chapter, I felt we truly get to understand why he wants to be a soldier. Some may recall how much trouble I had understanding this, back in WoR, but this chapter, this chapter is where I truly saw it. Dalinar rejects Renarin because he is sickly and cannot be a soldier, not like Adolin, hence Renarin’s obssession over soldering, when his skills lay elsewhere, makes perfect sense. He needed to be a soldier for Dalinar to love him. Now Dalinar has proven he would love him even if he were a scholar, Renarin is finally free to choose, but back in those days… even if his dad had gotten better with him, well, you can’t erase 13 years of negligence just because daddy has finally gotten it together.
That’s why it hurts so much to read the boys… both of them. They can’t erase what has been done to them and both carry the scars, even Adolin. He’s just better than most at hiding them.
I also noted how uncomfortable Evi was at seeing Adolin turning into a soldier. I felt we were missing a part of the narrative here… If Dalinar clearly preferred Adolin, did Evi express a preference towards Renarin? Had she given up on her eldest son knowing the Alethi would mold him as they want, outside of her influence? It would quite interesting to know especially since Adolin turned being the one resembling Evi the most, both in looks and in personality.
For all the talk of how Dalinar truly loved Evi, I never felt the love, especially not here. What a selfish man I thought towards the end of the chapter! Unable to make a concession up until Evi had to cry for this life which made her miserable. She hated the warcamps, but she went anyway, probably for Adolin’s sake, probably not to leave him completely alone in there though she also juggle with not leaving her other son alone. The poor woman. She deserves way more sympathy than she gets with all those “Evi is annoying, how dare she criticized Dalinar the Saint” commentaries I sometimes read.
And yes, I have to say it again, young Dalinar was a selfish man.
How painful it also is, later on, to have literally everyone pity on Dalinar for having lost Evi, thinking he loved her, thinking he missed her when he’s… argh. I will not say it, but this chapter is both the best and the worst of young Dalinar. Good thing he later came to realized this.
I have so much to say! Evi being looked down by Alethi for her refusal to enter their ridiculous word game is a testimony to how jinxed Alethi views of intelligence is. We later see it with Adolin being labelled as “dumb” for have inherited his mother’s inability to play with words, not like Kaladin who “talks like a girl”.
On the side note, yes, Evi is Riran. Brandon confirmed this.
On Adolin inheriting the Shardplate Evi/Toh smuggled out of Rira, the very Plate they negotiated for Dalinar to never have ownership on, the Plate the Iriali Queen demands to have back, am I the only one who thinks there might be more to this story? Seems to me Toh managed to get Evi’s son and not her husband to own this Plate. Why was this? Is there a line of inheritance hidden being this Plate were aren’t aware of? How odd would it be for Adolin to refuse the Alethi crown only to end up inheriting a foreign one…
On Adolin being afraid of horses, honestly, I don’t blame Dalinar here. If anything, Adolin is unbelievably good at hiding how he really feels, at hiding his insecurities and his fears. No doubt he never let Dalinar see how afraid he had been of horses, back then. While I do think Dalinar is a terriblt father, this scene wasn’t, IMHO, a good example. No way Adolin was letting his hero see him being afraid of anything.
On the still side notes, in this chapter I noted how Dalinar frown at Adolin hugging Evi, he deemed it a very un-Alethi behavior he was tolerating. Grown-up Adolin doesn’t hug except when he is sent away from his father. There, far-away, with Shallan, did he start hugging again, holding her close, wanting physical proximity and, by the end of OB, he was publicly displaying his affection, a behavior which got other Alethi to refer to his “Western heritage”. Hence, my impressions were the more we moved into OB, the more Adolin started reverting back to this natural state… reverting back towards being more like Evi, less like what Dalinar wants. Maybe this was just my impression. We’ll see in the next book.
@6 There would still be a northern and Southern Hemisphere, as hemisphere just means half a sphere. There would just be only water in one of them.
@@.-@,5 and 6 From the WoB I think it is safe to assume there is an ‘island” or something at the Origin. This was also hinted at in one of the interludes in Oathbringer.
@5 I agree that it’s weird to think of a planet with just a supercontinent as that is very unlike ours and most we can see, but… our own planet has been in that state a couple of times, so it’s not like it doesn’t happen. Roshar is just in one of those special periods. Still strange to think of. It also makes you wonder how world history would be different if humans lived during one of those times. Would there have ever been a completely expansive empire? I mean, the Mongols got pretty dang close to all of Asia and Europe (our closest analog to a super continent). Fun stuff to contemplate.
@@.-@, @5, It’s possible, though it seems that any who try to explore get caught in the Highstorms and never make it back. Most of the mentions are of people sailing East to find the Origin, but I wonder if they’ve ever tried sailing West? Do they even realize that Roshar is round? I seem to remember some people theorizing whether each Highstorm is different or if it’s the same storm that just wraps around the planet. They seem to have realized that this is why the Everstorm is so regular (Nine Days, because Odium’s number is Nine), but I wonder if there are any Flat Rosharers?
Also, nobody knew there were Scadrians at the South Pole except the Lord Ruler and the Sovereign.
It’s sad watching Dalinar and Evi together in these flashbacks scenes. Whilst he’s undoubtedly a poor husband to her, I wonder if he’d have been a better husband to another woman, even back then. The real problem is that the two of them are desperately badly suited to each other. They just want completely different things out of life.
It’s plain from the opening of this chapter that Dalinar’s actually been pretty happy and contented these last few years, fighting successfully against Jah Keved, growing in expertise as a general, enjoying spending time with Adolin etc. Back in earlier chapters when he had no wars to fight in Kholinar, he was bored and drifting into addiction. Being a soldier suits him.
Evi, on the other hand, is unhappy in a war-camp atmosphere, although not much happier apparently anywhere in Alethi society. I wonder, if Dalinar hadn’t mis-stepped by forgetting Renarin’s existence, would Evi have taken him up on the offer to go travelling? Would that have worked out for them? I admit, I find it hard to picture.
It’s interesting to note that Dalinar and Evi didn’t get married as soon as they met. They waited 2 or 3 years before actually marrying. During that time, it’s fairly clear Evi got a reasonable idea of what sort of man her husband was, since we saw her urging him to be less bloodthirsty on the battlefield. I wonder, therefore, why she married him. Did she think he would mature / change? Did she fall deeply in love with him? Or did she really just have no other options?
If she really had no other options, then I really want to know what happened to force her and Toh to have to flee. Eshonai and Szeth’s flashback scenes seem unlikely to offer any insight on this, but perhaps future chapters with Dalinar negotiating with the country’s leaders may show something. Otherwise, it seems likely we’ll need to wait for Renarin’s book.
@7 Gepeto:
That’s not entirely accurate. While this is the last time we see the two “on screen” together, there’s still plenty of time between this scene and the one at The Rift. They still have the entire journey to get there to see each other.
@9 The Flat Roshar Society has members all over the globe.
With enough stamina, I imagine a windrunner or skybreaker could circumnavigate the world by dipping in and out of the storm if it does just keep circling. If it fades out somewhere West of Shinovar and then respawn at the origin that wouldn’t work though. An airship could simply sail above the storm to origin.
@7 – Can you give us a TL;DR summary? ;)
@13: the TL;DR is basically, he called the fact that Adolin’s relationship with Dalinar wasn’t exactly healthy, and this is the chapter where he was vindicated.
@10: LOL. Point taken. I have however always internalized Adolin’s hug here to Evi as the “last” even though, technically, it probably wasn’t.
@13-14: Ah well actually I was speaking on how I made theories, with respect to the Dalinar/Adolin relationship, prior to OB’s release, which turned out being right. I spoke of how this chapter almost made me think I got it wrong, the first time I read it, ’cause Dalinar does seem like a decent father to Adolin, in this one, but upon re-read, knowing what will come made me read this under a completely new light.
Now, I just think this is a very sad chapter. In resume, I felt sorry for the boys, I said I understood why Renarin wanted to be a soldier so much, why Adolin has a hero-worship complex. I spoke of how Adolin ends up being more like Evi the more we read in the series. I spoke of how Adolin’s smile, Evi’s smile, is the mask behind which Adolin hides how he really feels… I also said I didn’t blame Dalinar for not catching on Adolion being afraid of horses though I’d love for this to come back into the narrtive. Somehow.
And I said I thought young Dalinar was a very selfish man.
Would it be accurate to describe Young Dalinar as a sociopath? I DO recall reading that even SOME sociopaths have bonds that with the ones close to them that they treasure and won’t break. I guess the fact that he won’t break those bonds in the difference between the two of them.
@8 whitespine
I think that is a good question. The Mongols weren’t the only ones trying to rule “the known world”. Alexander the Great got pretty far, Rome did a pretty good job. Even England held quite a good chunk despite most of it being colonies. There was a reason for the saying “the sun never sets on the british empire”. Having one super continent I think would have led to more conflict, but I am not sure if any dominant empire could have ruled the entire thing, or at least not at the early level of technology. Perhaps with certain advancements it could become an eventuality. Roads alone were a huge part of why Rome’s rule lasted so long after all.
@9 LazerWulf
I think the issue is that although the highstorm loses some of its power when it hits landfall (like most hurricanes on earth do), it could theoretically regain that power/momentum once it hits the water once more. I am unsure if there is a ship as fast as our dear runner Fleet to outrun a highstorm when sea travel typically takes months at that stage of technology lol.
Technically there are “flat rosharians”. All they have to do is look into the cognitive realm lol. Everything is a flat plane extending off into space.
Good point about Scadrial
@10 GillianA
Maybe I am a hopeless romantic, but I still do feel the good Dalinar we all know and love was present deep down in young Dalinar even then. Like that saying we all have a dark and light wolf inside us warring. What decides which wins is which one we feed. Dalinar always chose to feed the dark one. I feel Evi saw that light wolf deep inside him struggling to survive, and took it upon herself to feed it. To help it grow and fight off that dark wolf. Maybe she was deluding herself. Maybe she saw what she wanted to see, but I like to believe there was something there she saw in Dalinar, and the tragedy of the Rift is that lost chance. I think the forgiveness later gotten is the recognition that Dalinar did grow to love Evi, not as a husband to a wife should, but realizing the good person she is/was and using that as an example to emulate. Dalinar said it himself in Way of Kings. He is not “a good person” he just had a lot of good examples. I think Evi was that example, that he took to heart when she passed and carried on his way to the Nightwatcher and forward. At least that is how I read things.
@12 soursavior
I do agree, i think a windrunner or skybreaker could ride the storm all the way to the origin and find out at last what is there.
@16 BenW
I think it is difficult to term a person a sociopath or not considering the definition is still very hotly debated. Brandon called Kelsier a sociopath himself, yet there are plenty of theories pointing out where that is faulty to apply to Kelsier due to his empathy for his friends and his love for Mare. So although I am sure there are those who would label Dalinar as such, I am not sure if it can be conclusively stated especially when no one can seem to even agree on the definition itself.
whitespine @2 – We didn’t address it, but Dalinar did have another reason to avoid Kholinar. He knew he’d be seen by many of Gavilar’s other advisers as Prime Threat – the most likely person to oust Gavilar and take over the kingdom. He “knows” he’ll never do that, but they don’t, and he thinks it will be easier to just stay away. He’s got a point, of course, though the fact that it aligns with his own interests makes it a little less convincing.
@several – Brandon has also said that Roshar was specifically and deliberately formed as it is by Adonalsium. We don’t know why he chose the Julia set and all that – other than “because Brandon thought it was cool” but we also know that it’s behaving as one, very slowly, as it’s eroding in some places and building up in others. Also, of course there are northern and southern hemispheres, but not very much land mass sits in the northern.
Gepeto @7 – Regarding Evi’s presence in the warcamp, it wasn’t solely for Adolin’s sake. Part of it was trying to be a good Alethi wife – and Alethi wives accompany their husbands on campaign. (Not all of the soldiers, likely, but many of the officers needed their wives along to be scribes and stuff like that.) I believe she also simply wanted to spend time with Dalinar. He may not have “deserved” her love, but she gave it to him anyway as best she could. It’s fair to guess that she probably hoped that by going along with what he wanted so much, he would eventually go along with what she wanted somewhere along the line. This chapter shows how questionable that hope was, but I think that’s a reasonable assumption to make.
I stand by my assertion that, at this point, Dalinar wasn’t a horrible father to Adolin. He really did enjoy his son, and the way his questions required extra thought and deeper explanation. Of course part of that enjoyment was pride in the son who was clearly going to grow up to be a military genius like Dad… and as noted, he was totally unaware that his promised treat of “going for a ride tomorrow” was a very mixed reward to Adolin. Spend time with Dad! Yay! Ride horses… oh, no… Yes, I do give Adolin credit for never admitting his fear of horses, but a parent who is really paying attention ought to pick up on something.
As for Renarin, there’s no arguing that he was a horrible father to Renarin at this point. Evi was a remarkable woman, to be able to convince her sons that he was a great man – although I’m not convinced she was wise to do so to the extent she did. No child should be made to feel that “my father is too great and important to bother with me, ever.” Sure, there are times when a man has to put his work responsibilities above spending time with his family, or nothing would ever get done. BUT… not so eagerly, and not so constantly. If Renarin doesn’t come out to the warcamps, then Dalinar hasn’t likely seen him for three years either. Poor kid.
Also, yes, I’m pretty sure there’s more to the story of the Riran Shardplate than we know yet. If it matters to the story, I expect we’ll find out… and I think it might, since it was brought up again in the context of the Iriali queen claiming it was stolen.
Also also – Yay, I finally got to comment in real time!!
@15 Gepeto I don’t think Adolin HATES Dalinar for pushing him and for everything. I don’t think it’s that far. he still loves his father, just finds him overbearing and a difficult legacy to live up too. that doesn’t translate to hatred to me, We’ve seen Adolin hate, and he kills when he hates. No, I think Adolin’s relationsip with his father is much more complex than “Overbearing father who doesn’t show his boys the love they deserve and they secretly hate and resent him” no, I don’t think they do, and it would be against Evi’s efforts to have the brothers hate him. They do love him, and Dalinar now proves that he is trying to be a better man and father. he IS trying to be better, and he clearly learned a lesson in this book: He needs to live up to his mistakes and accept them, but continue moving on. We see that when Adolin finally admitted to killing Sadeas. He got frustrated, but the old Daliniar of just a few months ago would have arrested him, look at what he did to kal when he accused Amaran. Instead, he sees that as just another problem to solve
@16: I recall Brandon saying we definitely could.
@18: Good job Alice! Hope you enjoyed Startsight.
I find using the right qualitative to describe Dalinar’s parenting of Adolin is difficult. In this chapter, he was obviously not horrible, in fact, he seemed…. great. Granted, I too noted Dalinar’s interest in Adolin was directly proportional to Adolin’s ability to become exactly what Dalinar wants. We see later on, in WoR, Dalinar telling Adolin how he is the better man, how he has been good from the start, unlike himself. This was meant to be a nice moment, but we later see how it just weights on Adolin to know there is a standard he has to meet and to realize he just can’t.
Adolin ends Oathbringer thinking he is not a good person as he failed to be what Dalinar wanted him to become. If I trust the WoB Brandon sent me, the feeling is reciprocal. So while Dalinar perhaps wasn’t a “horrible” father (really, what would we define as horrible? this is so subjective, I found his later behavior towards Adolin to be, well, horrible or close to…), he did fail to, well, really see whom he son was. He never noticed his young boy was afraid of horses… I don’t blame Dalinar here, but maybe this is one example of Dalinar only seeing what he wants in Adolin.
He wants Adolin to be this man he wished he himself were. And that man is a honorable soldier who’s not afraid of anything, certainly not strange horses who run too fast. So maybe in pointing this out, you are underlining one moment where Dalinar saw Adolin in the light he wanted to see him. So he missed it.
I agree it is reasonable to assume Evi went to the warcamps to be with Dalinar though she hated it so much, she could have chosen to stay in Kholinar instead. Clearly, she had reasons not to.
And yeah, it is awful how Dalinar and Evi made Renarin feel so unworthy of the love of his amazing father…
I also think the Riran Plate being mentioned might imply it will have some importance within the narrative. If it weren’t for this conversation with the Iriali Queen, I wouldn’t think of it. Now, I kind of think the Plate is *really* important and Adolin is the unknowning heir of *something*.
@19: I never said Adolin hated Dalinar…. Where did I say this? I said Dalinar will come to hate Adolin for resembling Evi, but Adolin would never pick up on it. He clearly doesn’t hate his father though it’d be easier for him if he did.
Also, Dalinar didn’t forgive Adolin for Sadeas. He’s disappointed. Here is the WoB Brandon gave me: “Adolin and Dalinar both need to realize one can be a good person without being what Dalinar wants them to become”.
This summarizes the Dalinar/Adolin relationship and my thoughts on it. It isn’t all negative, but clearly there is some work left. My perception also is Dalinar isn’t really trying to be a good father to Adolin mostly because he doesn’t think he needs to. Adolin needs no one, every in-world character agree on this. Adolin never… has issues.
Even if Dalinar knew Adolin was afraid of horses, that doesn’t make him a bad parent for encouraging him to ride one. This is clearly the typical fears of child that a parent is expected to help the child overcome and not some deep rooted trauma. Adolin’s bond with his “horse” as an adult shows that he would thank Dalinar for helping him get over that fear an not resent him
Do we know when Renarin first started bonding his spren. Since young Renarin was kind of instrumental in Dalinar coming to the decision to see the Nightwatcher, I wonder if he didn’t give some of the same kind of healing he gave Adolin earlier in the book, where he made him briefly see the ideal version of himself.
@20 Gepeto Here is what you said, and I may have misunderstood it. “I knew that enthusiastic energitic boy would never see his mother alive ever again after this scene. I knew *that* boy would finish growing up trying to please a father who’s love will have morph into hate, a hate he will never recognize nor understand. I knew those few good years were the fondation of Adolin’s entire hero-worship complex next to his father which later manifests itself by Adolin thinking he’ll never amount to anything next to Dalinar. I knew those rose-teinted googles Adolin will later wear were fabricated during those years and ah, it just hurts. No kid should need to go through this and it hurts even more Adolin is rarely given credit for having lived through Dalinar’s worst years. He is so strong, so steady, always smiling…. It hurts to know this smile is not only Evi’s, but also a mask. Adolin’s own little fake persona.” I first read that as Adolin’s love turning into hate, which I was like.ummm. no? but now I see that you are saying that Dalinar’s love turned to hate…which I also don’t see. I don’t think Dalinar hates his sons, not even a little. HIs relationship with Renarin growing up was more apathy than anything, that eventually turned into a kind of acceptance and concern, while his relationship with Adolin was overbearing pressure to make him the man that he thought he must be. I’m not neccesarly seeing what you are trying to say there.
@20, 22: I don’t think it’s hate so much as unconscious resentment, of themselves and of each other, that neither is the person the other thinks them to be.
@21 John
I do not think we have any hint as to when Renarin bonded Glys, so all theories are open! That is an interesting idea, and I do agree that moment between Dalinar and Renarin I feel is what really set him on his path to the nightwatcher. I think even then Renarin was throwing a wrench in Odium’s plans.
Alice. another irony about Dalinar being able to foresee the next battle. In the present time period of SA, Dalinar has not been able to foresee the next battle. He did not foresee the Parshendi assassinating Gavilar and the prolonged battle on the Shattered Plain. Likewise, he did not see the end of the Vengeance War would usher in the Last Desolation.
Alice. If Evi went to the Nightwatcher and asked for increased intelligence, perhaps she would have end up like King T on his intelligent days. Any increase in intelligence, would result in a corresponding decrease in compassion. Evi’s compassion is what make Evi, Evi. If she were more intelligent but less compassionate, I think Evi would be more miserable than had she never gone to the Nightwatcher.
Lyndsey. I agree with you about Sadeas was supporting Tanalan and his rebellion. It would be just like Sadeas to play both sides. I think back then he was at least looking to undermine Dalinar if not both Kholins. He may have reaslized that he never had Gavilar’s charisma to create the kingdom that Gavilar did. Yet I believe that Sadeas felt he had the political skill to hold it and do a better job of being king than Gavilar.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@24: If that’s true, then score another victory for Sja-Anat
@21 and @22 I personally think that the real bonding didn’t happen until the ambush at the Tower, as he wasn’t acting odd in terms of seeing visions or healing until than. Whether Glys has been watching him since his youth like Sly or Pattern is a whole different matter altogether. It’s clear that the spren have been watching potential knights for several years and only now are making contact. So it is possible Glys had been watching him, maybe be a imingary friend to help Renarin comfort himself in dark times, as a person on the spectrum at a young age might do when stressed, seeing and reacting to things that aren’t there, and his twiddling with his little box.
@26 LazerWulf
Lol good point
@27 Steven Hedge
Hmmm, I also wonder if perhaps Glys as a normal spren had watched or began bonding Renarin, but was either corrupted just before the bond, or at some point during the bond? There really are so many variables when it comes to Renarin and Glys. I think the earliest we can say for sure that Renarin was bonded to Glys was either when he first got the shardblade, and would wince when he held it, or when the countdown started to show. Does anyone remember which came first?
One of the lines that stood out for me this time was Dalinar finding Evi’s snifflies “as distict and disturbing as bones breaking.” It speaks to his discomfort at dealing with the former snd his familiarity with the latter.
#25, @AndrewHB:
Of course, asking for intelligence is no guarantee she would actually get that. The Nightwatcher is said to often grant a different gift from what is asked a lot of the time.
Hmm … the Nightwatcher is a Splinter of Cultivation, but her actual function seems to be of Endowment. In fact, all the truespren do a very Endowment-looking things, granting magics to mortals, and even doing it through something much like Breath. It’s not universal among Splinters, either, because the Seons do not do that and I would be the Skaze don’t either. Interesting.
@28 Scath The countdowns defintley happened first, I’ve been rereading Words of Radiance, and Adolin got the sword because of one of Adolin’s duels, which started happening after the visions, They started formulating that plan after the countdown started. He also stopped wearing his glasses when he started wearing the shardplate at practice, which only happened after he got the blade, meaning regrowth was happening there.
@28: I believe the countdowns started first, as I think the first one was pretty early on in WoR, and he didn’t get the Shardblade until Adolin won it in the duel. He didn’t stop wearing his glasses until after he joined Bridge Four, though.
I wonder if there’s any evidence that he and Glys might have been bonded even back during TWoK? If the Battle of The Tower was the key that set the events in motion that lead to the Everstorm happening when it did, they could have been bonded before then, but there would have been no concrete date to count down to, so the numbers wouldn’t have appeared.
@22: Oh… Sorry. Bad wording. I meant Dalinar’s feelings towards Adolin would morph into hate, not Adolin’s. As I said above, clearly he doesn’t hate his father. And even then, hate is a *strong* word, I don’t think Dalinar hated Adolin for real, but he hated the fact he resembled his mother so much and, as a result, he wouldn’t deal with him. Or he tried to avoid him as much as possible.
The textual you posted was however not meant to be interpreted as you did, my bad. So to clarify things, I do not think Adolin hates Dalinar, I think it is obvious he doesn’t, but I do think Dalinar later has issues with Adolin looking too much like Evi which is something he definitely hated though he perhaps wasn’t hating Adolin himself. Just the memory he brought forward whenever he saw him.
Thinking about it some more, it seems like a lot of the radiants show some inclination towards their future abilities even before the actual bond. Perhaps the Renarin/Dalinar interaction was something like that.
Renarin was still having seizures and needed glasses up until at least the middle of WOK. Glys may have been watching but he isn’t making connection before then. Jasnah is still first bonded out of our MC’s.
As for this chapter, only the Rift sequence is more painful to read or listen to.
@35: I thought Shallan was first bonded, since it happened when she was a kid, and Jasnah didn’t bond until the night of Gavilar’s death.
WoB said Jasnah beat her to it. Too lazy to look it up on arcanum though.
Well, we got to remember the time line. the Assassination of Galivar happened, what, 7, 8 years from the beginning of way of kings, and I believe the words of Radiance had Shallan summoning Pattern as a weapon 7 years from words of radiance, so it’s close. Jasnah also apparently had been seeing her spren and her shadow moving around several monthes before the death of her father, so yeah, it looks like Jasnah is the “first”
WoB notwithstanding, it looks like Shallan was bonded before Jasnah. The Prologue where Jasnah sees Ivory and the flashback where Shallan remembers her father carrying her out of the “red carpet, once white” scene are both dated in the timeline as approximately 1167.10.1.1. In the text, both are “Six Years Ago.” We know that Shallan had to be bonded before that, enough to develop the abilities that worried her mother. Unless Jasnah was bonded unconsciously (which may be, given her backwards shadow thing), I don’t see how she was bonded before Shallan. Could be that they both started about the same time, but the text can’t pinpoint either one.
@33 Oh, no problem! I know you and I have been discussing Daliniar and his relationship with his sons for the past couple of weeks, I really just misunderstood that. I think we can both agree that he did have hate, but I saw that more as hatred of himself, evi, the rift, the lord who set the trap, anyone because what happened there than one particular person, which led to the drinking. Once he went to the nightmother…well, he had no reason to hate because he couldn’t remember anymore, so it was more of a curiosity than anything else.
@39 Honestly Shallan’s time frame of when she bonded with pattern always confused me because I always had the implication that they had to swear the first oath, and than they discover the rest when they do so, yet the way the lightbringers seem to work is that they tell truths instead of oaths…so than what was her first truth? did she really state it when her father “took her out of the red carpet”, before? because its implied that the truth of killing her father, and than her mother were part of her oaths allowing pattern to cross over for the former, and able to have the power to use the oath gate for the latter.
If there are no plate tectonics, where do the mountains come from?
Maybe Brandon only meant the recent revival of Shallan’s bond when he said Jasnah was bonded earlier. Did Shallan “kill” Pattern when she repressed killing her mother?
@@@@@ several – The Lightweavers speak the same First Ideal as all the other orders: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. After that, they speak truths in a movement toward self-knowledge. We don’t know what or how many truths Shallan spoke before her mother tried to kill her, but as I understand it (and this could be wrong), her deliberate amnesia basically regressed her bond. So she was still bonded to Pattern, but her truths “backed out” so that when we first see her, she was pretty much back at Level One. Interestingly, the first time she was able to Soulcast, she started to summon her Blade first. WoB says that if she had not started to summon Pattern as a Blade, she would not have been able to Soulcast. So… apparently she needed to actively re-acknowledge the bond, at least, before she could move forward toward becoming a Lightweaver.
@31 Steven Hedge and @32 LazerWulf
So it looks like the first solid piece of evidence we have as to when Renarin is bonded to a corrupted Glys is the countdown. Now when he bonded Glys prior to this, and whether or not Glys was corrupted at the time is the big question. I think Renarin comments to himself how the fits he gets where he sees the future are different than his usual fits, so I don’t think we could use that as a metric as everyone assumed his fits were the same since he was a child. Hmmm the mystery of Renarin grows!
@34 John
Interesting idea! Could very well be!
@35 EvilMonkey, 36 LazerWulf and 37 EvilMonkey
Ask and ye shall have
Badger (paraphrased)
Who bonded with their spren first, out of the new Radiants?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Chronologically, and of the ones we know, Jasnah
and
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
When did Shallan take the First Oath?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
That’s been quite a while. She’s been on this path longer than almost anybody. Jasnah’s been going for a while. If you look at the timeline, I think Jasnah beats her. But she’s been on this path for years.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Do we get to find out when she took that First Oath?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, I’m planning to delve into that. It’s supposed to be a “Wait, What?” I’d have to look exactly at the timeline, Jasnah beats her. Jasnah definitely beats her.
Questioner 2 [PENDING REVIEW]
<Are you sure?>
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Maybe not. I’d have to look at the timelines. This is why I have Karen, to keep my timelines for me!
@39 Wetlandernw
Honestly I don’t know. The most recent WoB has Brandon second guessing himself a bit, but he seems to be pretty emphatic. Could it be that he was counting the time Shallan regressed? So then theoretically Shallan has not been bonded as long because there was time where she went “down” in oaths, while Jasnah continued to progress?
@41 Steven Hedge
We do not know her original truths, but the prevailing theory is that the 1st oath is life before death, the 2nd truth is “i am terrified” when she soulcasted for the first time, the third is “i killed my father” and the fourth is “i killed my mother.
@42 Birgit
As Wetlandernw mentioned, Roshar was made by Adonalsium so it could have been designed with mountains to begin with. Then there is crem build up and erosion which could alter the shape of the mountains over time.
birgit @42 – “If there are no plate tectonics, where do the mountains come from?” The question only makes sense if you assume it started flat. Given the Cosmere’s design, and that Adonalsium made Roshar the way he wanted it, it’s quite reasonable to say “Adonalsium made mountains because he wanted to.”
ETA: Great minds, eh, Scath?
@46 Wetlandernw
LOL, indeed :)
I don’t have a lot to contribute this week. Except that I was shocked about how terrible Dalinar and Evi’s relationship still was after all the years. I’d been hoping that they’d have found some peaceful existence if not real happiness. But I was wrong. And after reading about the favoritism of Adolin I wondered how the boys could have such a good relationship. I guess it just got that much worse after and they had to stick together. Plus Evi is a saint. I don’t like conflict that much, but I could never have talked so good about Dalinar to the kids and seemingly the others around her too. What a difficult life for her, and never being good enough for it! Poor woman!! Next chapter please..
In some small defense of Dalinar and his two, very different, wives. I doubt I’m the only one who is happy in a second marriage because: A I learned from my own failings in the first marriage and B my partner in the 2nd marriage was much more compatible with me.
Dalinar and Evi had a political marriage. They came from two completely different cultures. Evi tried but it was an up hill battle all the way. Navani and Dalinar had an attraction all the way back. They are both the same culture. In a way, her picking Gavilar the first time would be the expected Alethi action. Dalunar was right to avoid both her and Kholinar because the Alethi would also expect him to try to take both her and the throne. And, of course, there was the Thrill.
@49 True. It obviously doesn’t justify the way he treats his wife and kids but I also get the sense that part of the reason why he is avoiding Kholinar is because he knows that all it will do is upset him needlessly. Still, he acts like there are only two options here. It’s not like he can’t bring his kids with him, or take time to go someplace else. As TVTropes would say “take a third option” But Dalinar, isn’t very good at seeing that third option is he?
@10 Gillian: I forgot to answer to your post, not because it wasn’t interesting but because I ran out of time. So you ask a very interesting question, how was it, during the three years they courted, didn’t Evi see the man she was about to marry. How is it she didn’t back down? Did she think she could change him? Were those she was running away from so terrible they made Dalinar seem like a better choice?
My thoughts are a little bit of all… I spoke, just last week, of how curious I was about the circumstances surrounding Evi, Toh and the stolen Plate. Why? Whom? So yes, I do think whatever the reason was, Evi needed to marry Dalinar to secure her safety. She needed to make this union work. This being said, I also think there was a great dose of Evi thinking she could change Dalinar, she could turn the Beast into a Beauty except this tale turned out not being a fairy one.
Are we going to find out more about what happened in Rira and Evi? Well, we may be. The flashbacks aren’t the only narrative means by which Brandon can tell us about the past. And Toh is still alive, the little coward, hiding in Herdaz. So yeah, we may find out more though how much remains to be seen.
@40 Steven: English is not my first language so there are times when I may badly formulate my sentences. Do not hesitate to ask if whatever you read in my posts makes no sense. Adolin hating Dalinar makes no sense, even I wouldn’t try to defend this position, it is… wrong?
I agree Dalinar’s hate towards Adolin is not, well, targeted at Adolin’s specifically. It isn’t against him, but he still ends up getting the bad end of the deal. For a teenager, it must have been very difficult to comprehend, little wonder Adolin blamed it on his father missing his mother. I wonder how he’ll deal with the truth.
@48: I wondered about the Adolin and Renarin relationship too. How did they grow up being so close given how Dalinar gave Adolin the preferential treatment? How did Renarin manage not to turn it against Adolin, how was he not jealous? How is it Renarin even loves this older, spot perfect brother who’s everything he isn’t? I can get how Adolin would be protective of his younger brother, but why does Renarin even care for Adolin?
I spoke a few weeks ago of how this was one aspect of the Kholins past history I felt we were missing data on. How did the brothers develop the bond we see them having as grown ups? Why isn’t Renarin hating Adolin for being perfection reincarnated?
@51 Gepeto Honestly? To me, anyway, it reminds me of me and my brother. I am the older one, but I am on the spectrum, same that it is indicated that Renarin is. my brother is one of my closest friends, despite the fact that I kind of suffocate him. he’s always has my back, and I have his, desptie that I am the older one. I have had him on schedules and ideas for years because I couldn’t handle simple changes. My brother is much more handier and street smart than I am, though I am more intellectual than he is, so we work off well with each other. I honestly see that kind of relationship between the Kholin brothers. Surely Evi had something to do with their closeness, but Adolin probably saw a brother that he needed to protect, and Renarin idolizes him. The most brother thing that I had seen of the two is when Renarin is teasing Adolin for his problems with girls, and when Adolin was preparing for the duels. It comes off that because Adolin stood up for his brother, Renarin has the exact same loyalty that he does. Adolin isn’t ashamed of him, he knows he comes off as “strange” but to him, that’s just his little brother. That’s how I see the relationship, as I feel like I have a similar one. This has been real talk theater
@52: All stories are different, see I have a sibling too. My sibling, while never being officially diagnostic, as a younger person, did have some of the hallmarks of neuroatypicality. Needless to say I was the successful one, the one who didn’t just do “well” at school, but literally excelled at it. I grew up taller, prettier and my social life, while a disaster, still wasn’t the train wreck my sibling’s social life once was. This is a very mild way to put it… Let’s just say our family was far from peaceful, happy and united. Let’s just say if I hadn’t been lucky enough to be born with, well, an innate talent at spilling good answers on pieces of paper, I don’t know how I would have grown up.
Despite all, my sibling is definitely not a bad person, but the situation… It was difficult. Really difficult. And she grew up being terribly jealous of me, angry at me and whatever bond we could have had, as siblings, died before it got to truly take form because of those negative feelings.
So yes, when I read about Renarin being so unfavored within his society, growing up with a disability no one can place a name on, untalented in the areas where Alethis deem important to be talented in, unfitting and worst totally rejected by one of his parents, I do wonder how he didn’t take it out on Adolin. Just Dalinar’s behavior towards him would have been enough for him to develop jealousy against Adolin. Now add everything else… and yes, I did wonder.
So see, my personal experience differs from yours and because it does differ, it made me ask those questions. I grew up on the receiving end of this jealousy and what made it worst is…. I understood. I understood why my sibling was behaving this way, though the first time I realized this, it hurts. I thought she was my friend. Of course, the book tells us the Adolin/Renarin relationship is nothing like the relationship I had with my sibling, that much is clear. I however wonder how it happened, how it developed. Adolin hasn’t been around much, when they were little. The book says he spent most of his time in the warcamps. So while, yes, I can pluck out a rational, I do wish the book would expand on it.
I want to read how the brothers got to be this close. You are right in pointing out while Adolin is protective of Renarin, Renarin too is protective of Adolin. I would however argue their relationship is very strongly based on the “older brother looking up for the younger brother” and, to Renarin’s eyes, Adolin has no weaknesses nor flaws. He is exactly as per the image he sent him when he healed his wrist: perfect.
@53 I don’t think Renarin sees Adolin as flawless. If recently reread the Way Of Kings and Renarin was the first to realize how Adolin got around Sedeas. (EDIT: Quote from chpater 12: Line by Renarin addressing Adolin “I don’t like how you get when you’re around Sadeas) Seriiuosly the Adolion Sedas conflict was right there, forshadowed in our first chapter with the Kholins. Seriously, rereading that book knowing what I know now, I was like “man Brandon was sliding the hints in really early.”
@54: Sorry. I think I haven’t explained my thoughts clearly enough. My perception indeed is Renarin sees Adolin as flawless: all he perceives his brother has issues with is his temper. He is impulsive and reckless, but these aren’t flaws per say. It is OK for Adolin to be reckless, to be temperamental, to be angry at Sadeas even if Renarin doesn’t like it. Those aren’t signs of him being “weak”, on the contrary, those are signs of him being exactly what the Alethy society praises. Hence, to Renarin’s eyes, Adolin has no vulnerabilities, no insecurities, no fears, no doubts, no worries. Adolin doesn’t stumble, falter nor need a shoulder to lean on. Adolin pushes through anything which is thrown at him, he is steady, reliable, he knows who he is and what he wants. This is exactly how literally everyone in-world views Adolin: a shining beacon of perfection who has some small issues, like all people do, but they are inconsequential. It is unconceivable Adolin may break down. Impossible. And Renarin sees Adolin exactly in this light: his big brother can do no wrong, he doesn’t have doubts like him, he doesn’t struggle like him, he knows what he wants unlike him and so on. And he isn’t pathetically broken like him. Of course.
Renarin never once asks how Adolin feels about not being a Radiant, it is just silently assumed Adolin is perfectly fine with it as he needs not be a Radiant. No one asks Adolin about it even though it was one of the questions many readers had prior to OB’s release. How would Adolin deal with it? Well, that’s the thing, literally no one thinks he needs to *deal* with it. Shallan is surprised at his speech on him not being a God (to Adolin’s eyes, Radiants=Gods). Why is she surprised? Because it never crossed her mind he might have feelings next to the situation. Just like it never crossed Renarin’s mind his brother might not be exactly the man Dalinar made him out to be.
Hence, Adolin is perfect and flawless, at least, in all the ways Renarin deems important.
And yes, I agree with you, the conflict in between Adolin and Sadeas has been introduced early on in the series though, at this point in time, Adolin wasn’t supposed to be the one to kill Torol.
Personally, I see Evi’s hand in the brothers’ relationship. Evi and Adolin spent half the year in Kholinar (presumably the same half), so she would be there to Mediate between the brothers. Adolin, despite having many “ideal” Alethi traits, still acts un-Alethi in certain ways (PDA with Shallan, fraternizing with the Dark-Eyed Soldiers like Skar and Drehy), and so while most Alethi shun Renarin, Evi would be there to teach Adolin to have compassion. (Jasnah’s and Renarin’s relationship, conversely, probably stems from them both being outsiders. IIRC, these two will get their own books in the second half, so hopefully we’ll get more details.)
As long as we’re sharing, I, too, am on the Spectrum, but wasn’t diagnosed until recently. (I had been tested as a child for several things, ADD, ADHD, Dyslexia, etc. but never for anything Autism related.) My younger brother (by 2 years) and I never got along growing up, but we’re good friends nowadays.
Dalainar and Evi’s story is a sad one. Story-wise I like that they didn’t have an idyllic marriage, but man it is difficult to read. I wasn’t particularly looking forward to this part of the narrative on my first read, as Dalinar being responsible for his wife’s death was well telegraphed and it’s such a worn out trope. The backstory with the less-than-perfect marriage and family life made it more interesting than I had feared.
@56 LazerWulf
I agree Evi probably did play a good role in Adolin and Renarin being close but I think we all also need to consider Adolin and Renarin as individuals. Sometimes people just don’t get along, or sometimes people do. Since we are all airing our dirty laundry, my father is a twin. His brother and he could not be more alike and close. They literally talk on the phone every night, and have done so for as long as I can remember. This resulted in him and my mother urging me to spend time with my older brother, and try to form a relationship with him. One that looking back, the death of my mother made me realize he never wanted at all. My brother would much rather just do his own thing alone and have nothing to do with me. Any interactions were awkward because they were forced on both our parts by our parents because “that’s how brothers should be”. My father to this very day cannot understand why my brother and I are not close. A friend from college had a similar problem with his older brother. His older brother didn’t want to give him the time of day, and ran off to another place, while my friend built his own life on his own. My friend has a younger brother that he is close to and helps. Then you have another friend of a friend who’s brother doesn’t want anything to do with him, but he was forced to name that brother best man for his wedding. A wedding the older brother couldn’t be bothered to write a speech for and left early. The friend of a friend, had to ask my friend during the wedding to come up with a speech on the spot to toast him because his brother couldn’t be bothered. My friend is an awesome guy and did it wonderfully. I am also proud to say he was the best man at my wedding. Then you have the relationship my wife has with her younger sister, and her cousin. Her and her sister are amazing together and inseparable. Her and her cousin call each other brother and sister all the time. Does that mean they were raised better than myself, my friend, and my friend of a friend? Of course not. Sometimes people just don’t mesh. Sometimes personalities are different. And honestly I think it is perfectly natural for siblings to sometimes get along wonderfully, or other times siblings just go their separate ways. People are unique. Just because they grow up together to me doesn’t change that. So sure Evi probably played a part, but I think at the end of the day, Adolin saw a brother he could be himself with, and Renarin saw a brother he could be safe with, and they both saw in each other a bond that they valued well into their 20s.
edit: To add I think its great that Sanderson has portrayed numerous examples of sibling relationships that all work uniquely with those involved so we can all find something to identify with.
Adolin and Renarin: two brothers they rely and trust in each other
Dalinar and Gavilar: one brother being jealous and envious of his brother always getting his way, but at the same time loving and respecting him
Jasnah and Elhokar: brother and sister that respect and love each other, but largely go off and do their own things
Shallan and her brothers: brothers and a sister that love each other and are close but at the same time have their problems
Hmmmm, now I am trying to think of others. Will add as they come to me. Anyone else remember brothers and or sisters in the novels?
:::smacks head:::: Kaladin and Tien of course! two brothers that love each other, though Kaladin acting more as a second parent to Tien, while Tien cheers up Kaladin
@10 – Yes they are a terrible match.
I intensely dislike Dalainar AND Evi in these scenes. He’s obviously an obsessed thrill / adrenaline addicted ass at this point of his life. The last thing he needs is a passive-aggressive wife who’s only approach is whiny guilt-trips. She really seems to take no actual interest into his responsibilities or the politics behind them.
Brandon has Dalainar pegged as the workaholic Executive who works and travels constantly. He portrays Evi perfectly as the rich spoiled wife who shows up at the office in her new Bentley to complain about how he works too much.
I also keep thinking how much better Navani would have handled these situations.
@56: This very chapter states Adolin spends most of his time with Dalinar in the warcamps, not half his time, but most of it. Hence, it is hinted Adolin isn’t going back to Kholinar as often as Evi, so he likely isn’t spending half his years with Renarin. Anyway, I don’t think this matters much, point is, Adolin was away from Renarin for at least half a year, each year.
There also are literally no hints of how the brothers got along as children nor do we ever see Evi interacting with them both. I have an old WoB which states: “When young, Adolin was jealous of the attention Renarin got.”. Huh, clearly it wasn’t Dalinar’s attention so I figured it must have been either Evi’s attention or everyone else (think Jasnah/Navani here), but I’m just fishing, trying to make sense out of a WoB I once got. Needless to say, I am genuily curious to read how the Adolin/Renarin relationship came to be what it currently is. While there is a lot of rational to explain, I’ll admit I just want to *read it*.
I don’t think Adolin needed Evi to teach him compassion. Seems to me he is a naturally compassionate individual: this isn’t something he needed to learn.
I agree about Jasnah and Renarin. Their relationship seems just as strong, if not stronger, than the one Renarin has with Aolin. I highly doubt Renarin ever cried to Adolin about Dalinar not loving him… I find it very easy to rationalize how they got so close.
My relationship with my sibling, now, is cordial. We talk, we share, some, but we aren’t friends nor as close as many other siblings I know of. Then again, I also know of siblings who’d refuse to stand in the room…
@57: While I agree it was predictable, early on, that Dalinar did kill his wife (or had something to do with how/when she died), I never read it as a “worn out” trope. More of the opposite… We were told, in both WoK/WoR, that Dalinar loved Evi, that he pursued her for three years, out of love. We were left to believe their story was one of pure love, genuine and happy. Seeing Adolin looking so perfect, yeah, you do believe the Kholin family is every bit the picture perfect portray they seem to be, except for Renarin, who’s disabled, but seems well loved nonetheless. Slowly seeing this image unraveled, watching the ugly truth behind the photoshoped image the Kholin family had displayed so far was not only imaginative, it was enthralling. How far would the Blackthorn go? What did he do exactly? Could he ever be worst?
As a reader, going into OB, I expected to read a love happy love story which ended in a sad tragedy, not a grim dark tale revolving around a brutal man who literally causes his wife’s death due to his own selfishness. It was… brilliant and, IMHO, not tropish at all. Predictable? Well, as soon we Dalinar gets his part of his memories back and fails to remember love, we know something is wrong, but reality was so much worst than anything I could have envisioned.
Personally, I absolutely loved it. It showed just how much, no matter how hard we try, we can never predict everything as there is always a twist. This being said, I can also understand how a given narrative may feel tropish to one reader and not the other.
@59: Navani isn’t perfect and she rejected Dalinar as a suitor because his brutality scared her. Evi did the best she could with the limited means she got. While she may have *tried* to understand Dalinar better, I would still argue she wasn’t the one being selfish here. She certainly wasn’t spoiled nor did she ever act as if she were spoiled, more of the opposite.
Hence, from my perspective, it is Dalinar who should have *tried* harder to show interest in something else than bloody carnage. Say, his family.
Oh! I forgot! Jasnah and Renarin could count like Kaladin and Tien. Cousin acting as second parent/older sibling! Hmmmm, who else……
@60 Gepeto I am sure we will get the brother’s relationship when we get Renarain’s inevitable flashbacks, but to me, I don’t really need to see how or why they get along, maybe because of my own experiences with my brother. Sometimes siblings just do, having a compassionate mother helps, but sometimes brothers just click, especially if a older brother is someone like Adolin, who tries to make everyone feel welcome and included, that’s important to someone on the Spectrum, trust me. That is just me though, I see something’s just don’t need to be shown to us, I’m more intrigued on how the hell Dalinar and Galivar’s relationship worked out for so long. the bloodthirsty battle tank and the schemeing manipulator, where it even feels he used Dalinar’s reputation to further his goals? its amazing that Dalinar only had one lapse to want to kill his brother. makes you wonder how important Alethi society places on siblings.
@62 Steven Hedge
I have an interesting WoB for you!
LerasiumMistborn
What was Gavilar’s opinion on Dalinar? I can’t help myself, but I feel Gavilar saw Dalinar more like an effective tool rather than his brother.
Brandon Sanderson
He DID have affection for his brother, but Gavilar had a tendency to use everyone like tools to further his goals. Including people close to him.
@51 Gepeto
Yes, I think that’s pretty much how I envisage it, A bit of each, but with probably a very strong need to marry Dalinar. I do hope we hear more about that ‘stolen’ plate.
Evi really did work at her marriage, despite the unusual circumstances nudging her into it. I wonder if she ever knew of Dalinar’s feelings for Navani.
@59 Black_Dread
The two of them just bring out the worst in each other, even when they’re trying, don’t they?
@58 – not sure if you were only looking for Stormlight siblings, but in other books we have:
Kelsier & Marsh – love and jealousy and not getting along always
Steris & Marasi – theirs is a little different as they didn’t grow up together
Edit: DUH! Vivenna & Siri
2nd Edit: Ligthsong & his brother who I can’t remember how to spell and might be a spoiler anyway
@66 goldeyeliner
Was originally thinking just Stormlight, but those are great points too! Kelsier and Marsh are a great example of how siblings can grow up in a broken home, where they have to work together to survive, yet they grew apart and viewed each other as a liability. That if one got caught, the other surely would follow. Ultimately there was a grudging respect between the two. Steris and Marasi I think also shows how it is a individual by individual basis. Despite the nature of their relation, they both make efforts to get along and show respect to each other. A kind of “you do you, and I’ll do me, but I respect what you are about”. Vivenna and Siri is a great example of siblings forced apart and resentful of each other due to their upbringing, but able to come together and love each other despite it. Lol good point about Lightsong. I will not comment further as you are right it is kind of a big spoiler.
@60 – Evi showed up at Dalinar’s war camp riding in a carriage in a small caravan. None of Dalinar’s soldiers’ wives had the means to do that kind of travel just drop in for a visit.
@68: To be fair, she wasn’t “dropping in for a visit”. She was upset that Dalinar didn’t bring her along in the first place, like the other soldiers’ wives, who we don’t know if they would have the means to do that, because they were Already There. I think she just hitched a ride with one of the supply caravans that was already headed there, instead of hiring a whole caravan just to take her there. And presumably the caravan leader would have given any high-dahn lighteyes a spot in their carriage, not just the wife of a Highprince.
@62: All fair points, our different backgrounds make us more interested in given narrative. I see nothing wrong with this.
Now, on the matter of the Dalinar/Gavilar relationship, I do think we will see more of it. I mean, next book is Eshonai’s flashbacks. I asked myself why we were reading the flashbacks from a dead character, why using Eshonai and not Venli if their sole purpose is to present the lore surrounding the Parshendis? I figured one of the reasons may be tied to Eshonai being the one to “discover” the Alethi. Then she became the interpret. Thus, I suspect we are going to see more of Dalinar/Gavilar through Eshonai’s flashbacks.
@64: I don’t think anyone knew about Dalinar’s feelings for Navani.
@69: Actually, she was more upset in Dalinar never coming home to visit, so she chose to join him instead. Had Dalinar come home on a regular basis and paid attention to his sons, she would have likely never insisted on being the Alethi wife.
@70: True, but the rest of my point still stands.
@68, Evi is not a spoiled wife who drinks cosmos out of bordom because her rich husband is away and goes to pester him. Her character is anything but that. A gold digger wouldn’t try to conform to an entire society to be closer to her husband, they wouldn’t wish to be smarter and take a risk, like Evi said she wanted to do with the Nightmother. Its not like Dalinar is in Kholin and she takes an large escort to see her husband, he’s in the middle of nowhere miles from civilization, on a border where there are enemies. Who would really go that far but supply cavarans? her tears aren’t crocodile tears, they are real because she was hoping to convince her stubborn as a greatshell of a husband to for once think of the children, and come home, so they can live in peace. There is nothing to indicate that Evi was anything but a woman who was way over her head in a society that is the anthesis of what her own society believes, a woman who tried her hardest to conform to make her husband happy. A spoiled person wouldn’t go surrender herself to an enemy, begging for them to surrender in fear of their lives, that’s selfless to an extreme.
Regarding siblings, my dad was definitely the favored sibling, but his 3 sisters actually also doted on him. So even though rationally there SHOULD have been a lot of resentment, they all ended up close. Family relations are weird things. But at any rate I can definitely see Evi trying to foster that relationship, especially when you consider how much of Adolin’s temperament is like hers.
But count me as one who does want to know a lot more about where Evi came from and why, and I want to see some fallout after the revelations of what really happened now that Adolin and Renarin presumably know the truth.
Hi guys! It has been a long time. I did not realize how much I have missed.
Anyway, I just want to ask if anyone is going to Jordancon in April? I’ll be in Atlanta for business during that week so I’m thinking of staying a few extra days to attend Jordancon.
Anyone?
Thanks. :-)
These are the toughest chapters for me. I usually skip them on reread. It’s bad enough that she died a violent, early death. To know she was so miserable at times while she was alive is a real gut punch.
:::smacks head again::::: Eshonai and Venli are another example of siblings. In their case there seems to be a latent resentment on Venli’s part towards Eshonai growing up that Eshonai seemed to have not been aware of, or at least was unaware of the extent it took. I think it will be interesting to see their dynamic in flashbacks in book 4.
@72: Well, said.
@73: I suspect Adolin and Renarin will not learn the truth until book 4. Dalinar is writing a book. He is barely literate, it is reasonable to assume he’ll need the full year to finish it up, just as it is reasonable to assume, he wouldn’t share its content until he is done. Hence, if my speculations are correct, both boys will find out when Dalinar reads the book to them, probably early in book 4. I doubt Brandon would have such a scene happened during the time gap or behind closed doors, it is bound to have too many repercussions. Not everyone will agree on having Dalinar as the “Chosen One” once the truth about who he once were comes out. Some might prefer a different leadership.
As for the boys, it is really hard to predict what their reaction will be. Will Adolin feel betrayed and will he lose his hero worship complex next to his father or are his rose-tainted glasses so strong he’ll forgive Dalinar on the spot? Will Renarin be upset his father killed the one person who gave a care about him growing up or has he already accepted the fact his father once was a bad person, but has now changed? Personally, since I enjoy family drama, I would find the narrative incredibly more interesting if Dalinar’s sons didn’t forgive him instantly, but it may be what Brandon will write.
@74: Welcome back! Don’t be a stranger. If you are looking for question ideas to ask Brandon, you know where to find me.
@75: Yeah, the story we got was a far-cry from the “love at first sight” narrative we thought we’d get. This being said, I personally think having Dalinar once been this unsympathetic violent man adds to the narrative. IMHO, it makes him more interesting than the paragon of virtue we met within the previous books, but everyone’s millage may vary on this one.
@77: I’m also hoping that there’s no immediate forgiveness, as that makes for a pretty boring story. (While I do appreciate Shallan not falling into the “Kaladin killed my brother so I must hate him” trope, they really do need to have a conversation about it.)
@77 Maybe something along the lines of “why can’t I hate you” may occur with Renarin?
This is just a guess but I am basing it on how I difficult I find it to stay angry. As someone on the autism spectrum, but a different place, I actively TRIED to stay angry once and I couldn’t. (I find it LITERALLY exhausting.) I could see him trying something like that in the light of this Revelation but just finding it to exhausting to. So a scene where he finds himself with every right to hate his father, but is basically incapable of doing so, I think could have a lot of power to it. But that’s just ONE possibility of where the story might go.
@77: I agree with you.
I agree immediate forgiveness would be terribly anti-climatic and the boys should have a “reaction”, though this reaction may not be outright immediate anger. It may be more… subtle. Stuff like Adolin fearing the man he truly is since he did kill a man and failed to regret it. I know some readers are advocating nohing major will come out of Dalinar’s book since it wasn’t initially planned for him to get his memories back until the back five, but I think differently. It matters not what Brandon’s initial planning was, he changed it and now Dalinar not only remembers his past, he is writing about it. This will cause ripples which I hope will be worth the read.
I also agree with you about how the relevation of Kaladin having killed Helaran panned out. Kaladin killed an enemy soldier, on a battlefield, who was actively trying (and almost succeeding) to kill not only his squad, but his Brightlord. Having Shallan have an epiphany over it would have been forced as there is literally no way to look at the event and blame Kaladin for it. He did nothing wrong: Shallan is smart enough to realize this. If she has someone to blame for Helaran’s death, then she ought to blame whomever sent him fighting this battle, whomever tasked him to kill Amaram. That’s whom her anger ought to be directed towards, not Kaladin, so I was very pleased when she chose not to let the event affect her relationship with our favorite bridgeboy.
@78: Given how Dalinar mistreated Renarin as a boy, rejecting him, not paying him any attention and given grown-up Renarin doesn’t seem angry about it, it seems like a realistic take on how he may react. He may think he needs to be angry, but not manage to pull it off. Adolin, I think, loves and worships his father too much to be angry at him, though the truth could send him further down his self-depreciating loop. Those would be my guesses so far.
@80 Gepeto
I didn’t know about this initial plan. Do we have WoB on that? Or is this a typo and should really mean “until book five”?
@81 bird
Himenss
So originally book 3 was Szeth and book 5 was Dalinar? Good that it changed…I cannot imagine book 3 without Dalinar’s flaskbacks. The story wouldn’t be so powerful.
Now I am curious, did Dalinar get his memories back in the original planning for book 3?
Brandon Sanderson
As others have theorized, this wouldn’t have worked quite the same way. Oathbringer’s ending would still have been its ending–but we wouldn’t have had the flashbacks and some of the revelations about Dalinar’s character. It quickly became obvious to me, however, that the confrontation with the thrill, the reveal regarding the ancient Radiants, and the solidification of the new Radiants as a unified(?) group needed to all happen alongside Dalinar’s flashbacks (and his recovered memories) instead alongside Szeth’s flashbacks and his plot, a big chunk of which was moved to book five.
The implication to me is the ending would have been the same, including Dalinar regaining his memories, just since in the original plan we would not see the memories he regained, we would have lacked the context of the revelation thereby losing the impact.
Thanks @Scáth for the WoB. After reading it, I am really happy Szeth’s and Dalinar’s books got swapped.
However, Gepeto’s post – if I read it correctly – implied that there was a plan to not give Dalinar’s memories back until the back five.
Book five I totally understand. Back five irritates me. But maybe I just misunderstood…
@83 bird
No problem. The way I read the WoB is that Dalinar was always supposed to get his memories back regardless, just we wouldn’t get the flashbacks themselves till book 5 (not the back five, Dalinar and Szeth switched places, Szeth is now book 5). So it would be the difference to me of Dalinar going “Storms what have I done?” vs actually seeing what Dalinar did. I am glad the books became what it was because otherwise I do not think Dalinar’s reaction would have gotten the same impact.
WoB for the original plan below:
sunraven01
So, I have to wait until book three to get Szeth’s book?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, Szeth is 3. Eshonai (she is the Parshendi Shardbearer) is probably 4. Dalinar rounds out the first five.
Questioner (paraphrased)
Will we see more of Szeth’s backstory, including how he became a Truthless?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
That, you will have to wait for his flashback sequences in a future book. Each character gets a set of flashback sequences. I’m not going to promise that the characters live to the book where their flashback sequences are. You might have a character die and then get their flashbacks the next book to get more information on them. This will be Shallan’s flashback, then the next book will be Szeth’s flashback, then Eshonai, then Dalinar.
Lol final WoB, confirming he intended Dalinar’s Flashback to originally take place in book 5
Brandon Sanderson
Hmm. This is going to be difficult to answer without straying into spoilers for books four and five. It’s also hard to say how the books would have played out if I’d swapped these back.
The Dalinar/Odium confrontation would still have happened, as that was something I’d been planning for a while. But how would things have played out? Hard to say, as an outline is only a rough guide–even for someone like me. It’s when you get to the nitty gritty of the story that things come together.
Having finished the book, it’s hard for me to imagine going another direction–as I made the decisions I did because I felt they were the ones that were right for the story. And a lot has changed over the years as I’ve worked on the details. (Kaladin’s arc from book two, for example, was originally plotted for book three–parallel to Szeth and his flashbacks, which share some similarities.)
Dalinar’s flashbacks would work very well for book five for reasons I can’t explain yet–but it became clear to me that I needed them for this book, despite the outline looking at the Szeth/Kaladin dynamic. (Which was upended anyway when I moved Kaladin’s second character arc to book two.)
So…that’s a whole lot of not saying much, I’m afraid. I can answer a lot more once book five is out.
sv15249
Does it mean that we shouldn’t expect any explanations or clues about what happened with Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer before book 5?
Ask just to know if we’ll know more in book 4 or we’ll have to wait a bit longer.To avoid false expectations:)
Brandon Sanderson
There will be explanations and clues, but I would anticipate more Dalinar in book 5 than in book 4.
oh man, book 5 is going to be sooo interesting and fun. I also cant wait for the after release interviews where he explains his original intentions.
@85 smaugthemagnificent
Whatever he has planned definitely has to be huge when he considers it the “end” of the first stormlight “series”. The sanderlanche will be epic! Then there will be a 15 year or so in world time jump if I recall correctly before the latter five. Can’t wait!
@80 Gepeto
How did Dalinar mistreat Renarin as a boy. Yes, he didn’t pay much attention to him, but that is not mistreatment. For me, the word “mistreat” implies something more actively abusive than neglect.
@ALL: Sorry! I meant book 5, not the back 5. Sorry about the confusion. Someone posted the WoB.
@87: I would argue not paying any level of attention to your son, rejecting him, not remembering his name, never going to see him nor giving him any love is mistreatment. Not a physical one, obviously, but one can be emotionally abused.
To me that sounds like the flashbacks and memories always belonged together, they were just both planned for book 5 instead of book 3. I don’t read that as the memories were planned for book 3 and the flashbacks for book 5. That wouldn’t make sense. If you don’t know what he is remembering you don’t understand the significance of the memories coming back.
Thanks @88 Gepeto for the clarification.
@89: I am curious as to what changes Brandon would have made to Oathbringer had it been Szeth’s book instead of Dalinar.
Dalinar’s arc in OB revolves almost exclusively around him recovering his memories. My thoughts however are he doesn’t have much else to munch on within the main narrative. Sure, he is trying to unite Roshar, but I always felt there were a lot of chapters written out for this which made me wonder if the plan hadn’t initially been for Dalinar’s role to be much less in OB. However, when the switch was made, Brandon had to increase the Dalinar page time to make it worthy of a flashback book, using the slow paced politic to explore his returning memories. He said something along those lines, once, how had book 3 been Szeth’s, the main narrative would have been written differently as he would have gotten a higher number of pages. Hence, I don’t think Dalinar’s character was initially getting all the main narrative chapters he got though Brandon also told us the end game of book 3 has remained intact.
In other words, I wonder if, by switching the books around, Brandon didn’t increase Dalinar’s overall age time, in the series, by making a book which was supposed to house another narrative his. It is clear Brandon has big plans for the character within book 5, so it seems reasonable to think whatever he had initially planned for then will still happen.
Just food for thoughts.
@89 birgit
Very true, however I go back to Brandon stating that the ending would still be the same. The big climax at the ending was Dalinar refusing to give Odium his pain, and asking Evi for forgiveness. I do not see how that could have occurred without Dalinar regaining his memories. I think Brandon moved the flashbacks from book 5 to book 3 to give the revelation greater context and impact, but that the memories are still regained in book 3 considering the ending. For me it would have been the difference between Dalinar saying what he remembered to Navani, and the reader actually reading it. Now according to Brandon there would be a reason with the plot of book 5 for the flashbacks to come up in book 5, but for me, in order to have the ending of book 3 to remain the same, Dalinar has to regain his memories in book 3, otherwise what pain is Dalinar refusing to give to Odium? He wouldn’t remember.
@92 Scath
It’s hard to imagine a narrative that makes sense where Dalinar regains his memories and we as readers are not shown those memories. The ending being the “same” is open to interpretation and the core of that ending that would have been the same likely did not have anything to do with his memories or Evi at all. The “same” part could just have been a confrontation with Odium and opening Honor’s Perpendicularity to win the encounter.
P.S. I’ve finally caught up with this reread after being months behind for most of it! Excited to be able to participate in the dialogue now.
@93 ineptmage
I understand. I just think it is hard to imagine a narrative where Dalinar does not regain his memories and he is still able to confront Odium. Could you give an example on how you see the confrontation going between Dalinar and Odium without Dalinar having his memories? Odium was also bringing the memories up for Dalinar with the Thrill, saying how it was Odium and not Dalinar that did it. I’m not sure how Odium could say those things, and bring those moments up without Dalinar’s memories.
@94 Scath
I think you’re right that the nature of the confrontation would have to be very different. It’s even possible that in this hypothetical alternate version, this is not the moment Odium fails to make Dalinar his champion, but rather it is a much more mundane confrontation. Amaram and the Thrill-driven Sadeas soldiers threaten to defeat the good guys and are on the brink of winning when Dalinar is driven to his epiphany of the “the next step” through another means (the entire book would have been different in this case, so there would be a different emotional turmoil Dalinar could overcome, perhaps something to do with his treatment of Elhokar or a new conflict with Navani or Adolin). Then, Perpendicularity opens, stormlight becomes abundant, and Kaladin and crew come in from Shadesmar along with Bridge 4 from Urithiru to save the day. Thus the ending is “the same” with only a different emotional motivation and without the Champion part. Ultimately, Sanderson chose to rework it for a reason so I don’t think you need to invent an alternative that is just as compelling as what it turned out to be; just one that is plausible from an outline-level standpoint.
@95 ineptmage
Ehhh, personally that does not sound very plausible to me, but at the end of the day without knowing what Brandon originally intended it is going to come down very much to personal opinion. I respect that you think differently, I just disagree. Guess we will just have to wait till book 5 to find out what Brandon originally intended. Wish you the luck with your theory!
@96 Scath
For what it’s worth, I have no investment in my theory and I don’t even think you and I disagree. I was merely proposing an alternate scenario where the end was still “the same.” I think both my idea and your idea (that Dalinar recovers his memories but we don’t get the flashbacks) are both weaker narratives than that which Sanderson ultimately went with. The avalanche at the end of OB was the most gripping in the Cosmere so far, for me, and I’m really happy we had the context of Dalinar’s decision here (though I think we’re still very much in the dark on the context of the consequences).
@97 ineptmage
Personally I would rather not say whether or not a narrative is weaker when I do not know how it would have turned out had Sanderson wrote it. That is why for myself, all I can do is wait to find out in book 5.
@98 Scath
Of course you are right; we can’t know. Either way, I’m still very happy with the way the story turned out and can’t wait for the next two books!
Scath @63 – Re: Gavilar using even the people close to him as tools, what are the odds that the reason he wanted Jasnah to marry Amaram was totally political? It was a match he very much wanted, but maybe it was more for gain than because he actually liked Amaram. Might even have been an attempt to control Amaram? Hmmm.
Steven @72 – You captured my feelings about Evi very well. Certainly she wasn’t perfect, and maybe a different approach would have worked better with him… or not. But she did everything she could to fit into her adopted nation for the sake of her husband and her children, and I salute her strength in doing so.
@92 – 99 – I’m stepping in on the side of ineptmage here. When Brandon said “the ending would have been the same” he might not have been thinking of quite the same aspects you are. They might still have been at Thaylen City (though I have a vague recollection of him saying it would have been Shinovar instead, maybe?), and Dalinar might still have united the Realms and captured the Thrill while Kaladin fought the Yelig-Nar/Amaram construct, etc. Then the Odiuim’s champion, “you cannot have my pain” and Evi’s forgiveness would have happened in book 5. Obviously it wouldn’t have the same impact that way; it would have been a different conflict when he confronted Odium, and Szeth would have played a bigger role. But he decided it was stronger this way, combining all those elements with Dalinar’s memories. I don’t know what was in his head, but his thought of “the ending” might not have been what stood out most to you about it.
@100 Wetlandernw
Very possible indeed. I have been doing a focus on all quotes related on Jasnah to type up a character analysis on her because I feel there is more to her than meets the eye. The reason I bring it up, is because I recently re-read the scene where Jasnah walks in on Gavilar and Amaram talking. In that scene Jasnah thinks to herself how her father does not seem to trust her anymore which hurts her. I find this interesting considering in Way of Kings Dalinar says how he trusts Jasnah over Navani because “you know where you stand with Jasnah”. On top of that Jasnah mentions to Shallan that when Gavilar discovered the Parshendi with Dalinar, was the closest time she had spent with her father. That they had bonded over the scholarly pursuits of researching the Parshendi. So it must have been very jarring for Jasnah to go from a father who was relatively indifferent but she loved, to a father who expressed interest in the things she loved, to sudden mistrust. Gavilar could have very well pushed the union with Amaram as a means of controlling/keeping an eye on Jasnah. There is so much about that relationship I can’t wait to know, but I gotta be patient lol.